[Idlelo2] Re: patches for darwin build of m68k-uclinux-tools + help needed with -msep-data for MC68VZ328

Sat Feb 25 23:48:25 EAT 2006

Moses,

I guess that's the difference between us that makes me use a Mac.  
Apple focuses on the needs of their customers. And they did a very  
good job on mine. I also focus on my own needs, which is to be able  
to run and develop free software on my Mac. In your response, nowhere  
do you indicate how this is going to make my life or work easier.

What about those who use OpenOffice on Windows? Do you for one second  
not stop to think how this would not have been possible if people  
didn't want to work with FOSS under Windows? What about Cygwin? In  
fact, what about Firefox? Do you know that without the Windows  
platform Firefox would be an insignificant fly speck of a browser  
that no one would bother developing for? Do you know that sometimes  
the numbers count? Do you know that with Windows, it is their sheer  
numbers that keep them alive? Do you not want to be able to tap into  
that resource?

What you are proposing is a step backwards for me. The applications  
that I use and need from free software are all available on Mac OS.  
The application on Mac OS that I use and need are NOT available on  
Linux. They aren't available on Windows either. So you want me to  
take a step back, just so that I can have 'kosher FOSS credentials'?

Wrong approach. Add value first!!!

As for me persuading Apple to open up, that's not the real issue. I  
see that you promote Google as a company that runs on Linux. If you  
look into this very carefully, you will see that 'closed data' is an  
even greater danger than 'closed source' ... At least with 'closed  
source', you still have access to your data ... think about that one  
too.

Everywhere you turn, there is something open and something closed.  
Making everything open and nothing closed is an ideal case. It will  
never match reality because people have actual needs that are not  
always neatly tied in with the ideology. Why not just accept that  
some things will always be closed and instead focus on opening up  
more and more things? Surely, with enough things open, then the rest  
that are closed will open up too. Incremental gain is better than  
immediate huge gain, when you look at it as sustained over the long run.

Lastly, I will explain myself in this manner. I have adopted FOSS but  
in a way where I have transformed it to my own needs and to my own  
thinking. I didn't just take the traditional FOSS ideas and swallow  
them whole. In fact, being able to change the 'source code' to the  
FOSS idea, is what FOSS itself is about, 'the freedom to change the  
source' - which can also be the freedom to change the idea, because  
the idea is also a form of 'source code'. FOSS for Africa, do we just  
adopt the Western idea of FOSS? Or do we tune it to our actual needs  
and actual situation?

Everywhere in Africa, we just adopt and transplant technology. In my  
case, I have tailored it to the actual needs, and like I keep on  
saying, stick with the actual needs of the person you are dealing  
with and help them meet their needs.

Don't swallow rhetoric wholesale, they call that, drinking Kool- 
Aid ... I suggest water instead ... it nourishes and it is healthier.

-- G.

On Feb 28, 2006, at 6:54 AM, Moses Marimo wrote:

> Guido,
>
> You are surely a passionate, if note cult follower of Mac, reminiscent
> of the Mac vs MS wars. I can still contribute to open source on  
> Windows
> or even SCO, but that was never my point. I was referring to  
> limitations
> in potential and also the give and take scenario that doubly  
> reduces if
> not completely erodes the net contributions.
>
> ...and why don't you encourage Mac to open source their code like
> Solaris. Then, I will probably try it and see how "PRODUCTIVE" it is.
> Until then, they will have to content with their market-share that
> ecludes me and any of those who consult me!
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Moses
>
>
> On Sat, 2006-02-25 at 19:45 +0300, Guido Sohne wrote:
>> Here is a recent technical exchange with one of the developers of
>> uClinux. My using OS X has led to improvements in binutils and to the
>> build process which now enables more utilization of free software. Do
>> you still find my use of OS X and developing under OS X to be
>> incompatible with the advancement of free software?
>>
>>
>> Let me know what you think ...
>>
>>
>> -- G.
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>>> Date: February 22, 2006 4:04:30 AM GMT+03:00
>>> To: Guido Sohne <guido at sohne.net>
>>> Subject: Re: patches for darwin build of m68k-uclinux-tools + help
>>> needed with -msep-data for MC68VZ328
>>>
>>>
>>> Guido Sohne wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Thanks very much for the response! I was beginning to get a little
>>>> desperate and all roads lead to compiler changes or booting Linux
>>>> on my PowerBook. My DVD drive is broken, so I can't easily install
>>>> Linux on the machine and somehow, I like the machine as it is, so
>>>> am resistant to that idea, maybe if I get another Powerbook, next
>>>> time I will do dual boot, but I really like the Mac environment
>>>> and will do as much as I can to stay in it, until they drag me
>>>> kicking and screaming away :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, I understand you.  I initially bought my iBook because it was
>>> a cheap laptop with well supported by Linux.
>>>
>>>
>>> After using OSX for a while, I decided I didn't need a Linux
>>> partition
>>> after all.  MacOSX is not just a nice GUI, it's quite a good UNIX
>>> environment too.
>>>
>>>
>>>> insight:/tmp $ diff -ru
>>>> elf2flt-20041205/elf2flt.c /opt/uClinux/tools/elf2flt-20041205/ 
>>>> elf2flt.c
>>>> --- elf2flt-20041205/elf2flt.c  2005-01-16 00:26:24.000000000
>>>> +0000
>>>> +++ /opt/uClinux/tools/elf2flt-20041205/elf2flt.c       2006-02-21
>>>> 12:43:39.000000000 +0000
>>>> @@ -56,7 +56,7 @@
>>>> #elif defined(__CYGWIN__)
>>>> #include "cygwin-elf.h"        /* Cygwin uses a local copy */
>>>> #else
>>>> -#include <elf.h>      /* TARGET_* ELF support for the BFD library
>>>> */
>>>> +#include <elf/m68k.h>      /* TARGET_* ELF support for the BFD
>>>> library            */
>>>> #endif
>>>
>>>
>>> I think it's not enough: elf2flt supports a number of other
>>> architectures such as the ARM.  And maybe we could also get
>>> rid of that local copy for Cygwin.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Very nice! I don't know how to guess for Darwin. Could you show me
>>>> how you fixed it, for 'educational purposes'?
>>>
>>>
>>> The patch is here:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php? 
>>> thread_id=9772268&forum_id=33303
>>>
>>>
>>> You can grab it from CVS too.  See http://www.sf.net/projects/bdm/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> - elf2flt-darwin_host.patch
>>>>>   Why can't you build statically?  AFAIK, the "-static" option
>>>>>   also works on Darwin's custom ld.  Do you miss some libraries?
>>>> ld can't find -lcrt0.o because Apple doesn't supply that file for
>>>> its gcc compiler. There is a crt2.o present though I don't know
>>>> how and when it's used.
>>>
>>>
>>> Uh, I didn't know.  It's also a FAQ:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://developer.apple.com/qa/qa2001/qa1118.html
>>>
>>>
>>> I've applied your patch and recommended it for elf2flt.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> And am stuck a little bit here for now. Will give you more details
>>>> if I get past this ... I think it is because am using the
>>>> linux-2.4.x kernel series ... Will download the linux-2.6.x series
>>>> and try and get it to build that way. Or maybe I just need to use
>>>> a fresh linux-2.4.x tree instead of reusing what the last
>>>> toolchain build used?
>>>
>>>
>>> I've not tested with 2.4.x for a long time.  Please, also try with
>>> 2.6.x.
>>>
>>>
>>> Beware about the uClibc config weirdness: there's some fancy stuff
>>> going on in the build script with standard input redirected.
>>>
>>>
>>> When some configuration variable is missing, the uClibc build
>>> machinery (actually KBuild) will ask questions on stdin and
>>> "eat" output from the script.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> makeinfo was installed. It gave an error I can't quite remember,
>>>> something that Bad Input, but the error was related to makeinfo
>>>> not processing the gdb.texinfo file properly. AFAIK it choked on a
>>>> line starting with @strong{Note:} and when I removed it, it still
>>>> went on with several problems, but no line numbers this time, so I
>>>> took the easy way out by not creating the .info files, since I
>>>> think I can live without them ...
>>>
>>>
>>> Oh, yes... I remember fixing it manually and blaming
>>> the beta version of makeinfo from fedora-devel.
>>>
>>>
>>> So we should disable info pages globally as you did.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> - m68k-bdm-darwin_host.patch
>>>>>   Same comment of elf2flt-darwin_host.patch.
>>>> Yes. See about the crt0.o object not being supplied by Apple ...
>>>
>>>
>>> I'll fix that in BDM too.  Thanks.
> -- 
> Really, I'm not out to destroy Microsoft. That will just be a
> completely unintentional side effect.
>                                 --- Linus Torvalds
>